TRAINER'S EYE #141 - "Roselia Following the Sweet Scent to Community" ft. Greg Leatherman from Very Random Encounters

Greg Leatherman, a dedicated Pokémon Trainer and host of Very Random Encounters, explores the captivating world of Pokémon, from Roselia in Ruby and Sapphire to the evolving lore across generations. In this Pokémon interview, Greg critiques the franchise’s growth while reflecting on his own journey in podcasting and his commitment to promoting LGBTQ+ visibility in both gaming and podcasting. This episode offers fans a deep dive into Pokémon lore, RPGs, and how the community is changing for the better. 

Sources
Opening Song: "Forget You" by Alex_MakeMusic from Pixabay

Transcript

Greg Leathermen: 0:00

Hello, I am Greg, and this is my Pokemon story.

David Hernandez: 0:49

Welcome to as the Pokemon Turns, where we interview people about their experience with Pokemon. My name is David Hernandez I'm joined by Liz Sander, AKA. You may know him as Greg, one of the speakers from It's super effective here to share his experience with Pokemon Greg, welcome to Ask the Pokemon Turns. Thank you for coming on.

Greg Leathermen: 1:07

Yeah. Thanks for having me. Hello. Hello everybody.

David Hernandez: 1:10

Hello. Hello. It definitely is, and it's always nice to see people who are fans of the franchise, who have been fans for a long time. Because I told you before we record, we're kind of a different breed. We've been through ins and outs and the ups and downs of what comes with Pokemon. I wanna start with this, uh, question. What keeps you engaged when it just comes to Pokemon itself?

Greg Leathermen: 1:29

It's funny because I didn't have the same experience that a lot of people do. This wasn't that I picked up as a kid.

David Hernandez: 1:35

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 1:36

not a child when this started. a full grown adult. but I find the whole series incredibly charming. It makes me think of a better world in some ways. it's generally a good gameplay. I find the stories that they tell when they're bad, mildly interesting. you know, I'm a, game designer. I play a lot of role playing games. I find the world really just a fascinating world to think about. Be in, think about the lore. For the most part, with some exceptions. I like pretty much every aspect of the games, and a bunch of the side games. I think their strength has always been like, one of the things they've done is they've made a thousand creatures now and all for about like four, that somebody's favorite. There was like four that were voted on that got zero That got zero votes, but almost everything else had, everybody has a favorite.

David Hernandez: 2:33

That's kind of crazy though, like we're a thousand deep and then you know, like you said, the world building and just how deep it goes into is always been something that's interested in me because there's always like. The surface level stuff, and then there's always like, if you go deeper into it, so you don't e either way, you still get kind of an experience and the more deeper you get into the franchise, the more you kind of realize like, man, they really thought this stuff through.

Greg Leathermen: 2:56

I wish they thought it threw more, um.

David Hernandez: 2:59

What's one of your big peeves? Let's type, let's talk about what's one thing that bugs you.

Greg Leathermen: 3:02

so it really came forward in, so I mean they fixed one of the longstanding issues, right? Like so they finally stated in Omega, ruby, alpha sapphire that each console is its own universe. like they finally solved that problem. Like you're, all of these are in their own universes, which is why, you know, the Let's Go Canto, which is in its own switch universe is different than the Game Boy canto. Like they are different universes. They have different rules that they play by, they have done a good job of sort of implying that if you inadvertently cross universes. You will lose your memory. So we have examples like Annabel coming into Omega, Ruby, alpha Z remember who she is. INO in, legend Zaist has no memory, has vague memories of what was going on. The problem is that we get to the Scarlet and Violet, where they play with that idea, but refuse to actually answer the question of paradox. do they mean by paradox? And they begin to play with the idea of time travel, which effective in Violet, like going into the future. We have no idea of what's happening in the future, but if Sada actually goes into the past, that creates a whole slew of problems. would be a record. We know they dig up fossils. There would be things about a person traveling to the past that we would find record of, and they just sort of refuse to answer that. They also don't really answer why the paradox Pokemon aren't any of the Fossil Pokemon, why they're so different. Like they just sort of refused to answer those lower questions and they kept promising like, we're gonna learn the secret of Area Zero. We're like, cool. We're gonna answer what paradox Pokemon are. Nope, it's just a turtle. Okay. Like, the turtle does what? What is the turtle doing? How? How does that affect paradox that you've created? Are they people's dreams? Are they wishes? Are they actually from a different time? Is it a different dimension? Like what are, you've created a lore, but you will not go enough to actually make something concrete, which. I don't like, I want concrete answers so that things consistent and play by the same rules from game to game. And they really, in Scarlet and Violet, were like, no, we're not gonna answer that. And we're just gonna be loosey goosey with it. Like they also, copped out at the end of Legends Archus as well, like, how are we in the past? But it is a different region and they don't sort of explain how that transfers over into, into actual Cino. They're sort of like, oh, well it, it's different region. And then for some reason his Sui Pokemon are now in the future, but we're not gonna explain how they got there either that it's gonna be in raids or they're just gonna be on this area. And the people found them. Or Blood Moon, UR Sauna was just arou, like swam here and was just around. So it's been around for. many thousand years? How many years? Like what? What are you doing with these timelines? Like I just want a level of consistency to just so that I feel like somebody at the company has a big book of, of lore and is actually like, this is the lore of our world and I just don't feel that they do that. And it makes me bananas.

David Hernandez: 6:35

And that's the tricky part with time travel and forward or backwards and stories. They usually are tried best avoid it because it creates this kind of. Oddly enough paradox. Right? And it bugged me too, because you think about legends, we'll start with there. You got his and Arana, you've got his and Zora. Okay then how are they not in the present? Right? And then you think about you, you alluded to the fossil Pokemon, they're, how are they not alluded to in Pokemon, um, Scarlet. And you've got now more of these inconsistencies and you're kind of just left off. Oh, it just this mystery

Greg Leathermen: 7:12

Yeah. trying to string together the lore, like they did a lot of heavy lifting by finally saying each one was a different universe, but they just sort of refuse to really tie it down.

David Hernandez: 7:23

mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 7:24

think like, at this point, it feels like they just kind of don't care about being consistent, which is a choice. I'm, fine with that. If they would just sort of come out and just say, we're, you know, these are, we are telling myths, we are telling mythology, we are creating fairytales and it doesn't have to be consistent. I'm sort of fine with that. If they would just make that statement.

David Hernandez: 7:51

I think it would've been fine if we had just found out that all these worlds are just from a memory from a kid. they started from collecting bugs. That was the whole story. And this, his kid just maybe had just been writing stories the entire time and were just like figments of his dreams. I would've actually been better with that than what we're trying to do now. But anyway, go ahead.

Greg Leathermen: 8:06

I mean it makes the dream world even more complicated.'cause they introduced that. It's like, okay, what is, where is that? What does that mean?

David Hernandez: 8:13

A dreaming and a dream.

Greg Leathermen: 8:14

out of the dream world? It what, what is that even? Yeah, it's, it's wild.

David Hernandez: 8:20

Well, you know, obviously you have a lot of experience. Let's start from the beginning real quick. Let's, uh, dive into that. You know, what's your first experience with Pokemon?

Greg Leathermen: 8:28

So my first experience was when the games came out in 1998 here in America. I. Was a full blown adult and I was gonna go sit in line'cause it was the nineties and you couldn't do things online. and I were gonna go sit in line to pick up Star Wars tickets'cause you had to sit in line to actually get tickets. Like, so we were like, okay, we're gonna go there, we're gonna get there at like eight in the morning. The box office opens at like four, so we're just gonna sit in line. And I was like, well I need something to do while I'm sitting in line'cause I'm not gonna talk to my brother for roughly eight hours. It's just not gonna happen.

David Hernandez: 9:05

Oh, you're having to camp out for this? Oh, wow.

Greg Leathermen: 9:07

yeah, we had to go sit line out, well camp out. It was indoors, it was at the Mall of America, so it wasn't really, it wasn't like out on the street, but

David Hernandez: 9:17

sure.

Greg Leathermen: 9:17

indoors and I was a big comic reader and I kept seeing ads for this new role playing game Pokemon. And I'm like, I like. JR pgs, I am a big final fantasy fan. This looks fun. I'll just pick it up.'cause what's the worst thing that happened? I pick it up, I don't like it. put it away and play a different No harm, no foul, like whatever. It's 30 bucks. popped it in started and I was immediately hooked. I'm like, this hits all the notes. It's a good RPG, it's got a semi-decent combat system. It's got super cute creatures. And I was in, I'm like, yep, this is a really great series. and then I started, like, expanded out from there, like looking at the anime and I'm like, oh, the anime's fine. know, it's got its charm, but it's also very much geared towards kids, because it's not a complex series and they aren't very consistent. But I just thought. The creatures that they were creating and sort of the world that they were hinting to were really fascinating. And I just loved it. I'm like, this is just, and it's also just fun, right? Like Gen one didn't work very well. Half the moves didn't do what they said they would like. It took me years to get over the fact that Swords dance actually worked and Focus Energy actually worked.'cause they didn't work in Gen one. So my first experience was like, why would I ever use these? They don't work, they don't do anything that it says, I am reading the text, but that is not happening in this game. then I was just, I was in, like, I was just sold on the series, on the concept, very let down by gen two. And then gen three, which is my gen, really sort of solidified like, this is a real, this is a real thing. They're gonna really try to make this a franchise.

David Hernandez: 11:07

I think you're the first one I've ever heard. Who doesn't like gen two?

Greg Leathermen: 11:10

Gen two is awful.

David Hernandez: 11:12

Wow. Why? What's your reasoning behind that? That's very interesting.

Greg Leathermen: 11:15

Gen two, and again, I will preface this like I was a full blown adult playing this game and realizing it was a poor of everything they did in Gen one. They made a tiny region, they brought back team Rocket, but made them worse. So instead of making them a criminal organization that was actually a threat n Gen two, they suddenly made them a cult to personality that couldn't function without a leader, which is like, okay, why now?'cause you were a threat before and you're leader left and you're still around, but you're just lost and you don't know what to do without Giovanni. Like that doesn't make sense with what you were before and you're doing the same things. Okay? So instead of taking over a department store and a scientist place, you're taking over a radio station. It's the exact same plot line. the gym leaders didn't use Gen two Pokemon half the time. It's like, what are you, what are you doing? Why? it really heavily relies on a lot of backtracking. And then instead of having a bigger, more flushed out region, they're like, well, let's go back to canto'cause this is our last hurrah. And they didn't do anything. They didn't do anything over there. The gym leaders didn't really progress the levels between things that you capture and the grasp versus where the levels are for the gym. Leaders are incongruent. Like they don't try to match the levels. They don't have a set reason for you to be over there other than you're just revisiting a game that you had just played two years ago. It was clear, and they have said this, it was clear when they started that that was going to be the last game in the series. And I think they phoned in a lot of that game. they weren't forward thinking when they made gen two. They were, let's just repeat the success we had of Gen one. And it's a good formula to repeat your success. It's not a great formula if you're going to have a franchise. and so gen two, as an adult, hearing how Angry Gen Two made parents because of the day night cycle, the events that happened on certain days, parents were just furious that their kids were like making weird demands about this dumb game. And I think really that, sort of hurt them for a while going forward. it's just a problematic generation that I always look at like. You had the chance to really make a sparkling sequel and you just kind of made a rehash of Gen one. Thank God. Gen three came along because Gen three was when I could tell that they were being very deliberate about the games they were gonna make going forward. And Gen three really is a turning point. I look at that as like one of the most important generations because they were willing to say, we know we can't connect to the old games, so we're leaving them behind and we'll figure it out as we go forward, but we are actually going to move forward.

David Hernandez: 14:05

I think you bring up a good point because a lot of people who grew up with Gen two, gen one were younger. You know, were still not able to process the reasoning behind the story. And you kind of bring up some of the flaws I guess, that kinda get overlooked to where Team Rocket appeared as a threat in Gen one.

Greg Leathermen: 14:22

Mm-hmm.

David Hernandez: 14:23

know, cops and everybody were worried about these organizations and then you go to gen two and they're in a slow poke, well, couldn't slow poke tail for reasons. And it kinda shows that it kinda was just duct taped together in a way. But then I loved Gen three for the reasons you said. I felt like the world building was much better. I really enjoyed the plot line, although I didn't understand Team Mwa at the time. I understood more team magma, but that's just because I didn't get the whole political side of it within Japan. But I felt more complete, more at home when it came to Gen three.

Greg Leathermen: 14:53

Gen three is interesting'cause Gen three was the first time they decided to tackle a big world question of environmentalism. But Pokemon has this terrible history of asking a big question and not having an answer for it.'cause we don't have an like, we don't have, have an answer for environmentalism,

David Hernandez: 15:14

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 15:15

their general answer is like, well, what do you do about. Needing more water or needing more land, like this is an environmental impact, it doesn't matter. Just defeat the, just defeat the bad guys and never think about it again. Like it is their solution of just defeat the bad guy and you don't have to think about it. I, I think it's one of the problems they have, like, I applaud you for asking big questions, but you know, maybe have a better answer, but like, they're a conservative company, they're not going to give a very controversial answer.

David Hernandez: 15:46

right.

Greg Leathermen: 15:46

gonna be like, well just beat up the bad guy and don't think about it.

David Hernandez: 15:50

When it comes to gen three. I guess, what are some of your favorite parts? I know you said, like I said, they ask star giants questions, but they don't answer'em, and we see that more and more. But what about just Gen three specifically, since that's your favorite?

Greg Leathermen: 16:00

they were very deliberate about. How they wanted to make games going forward. So Gen three gives us double battles, which becomes the standard for pretty much everything they do going forward, right? Like double battles become the thing that they use for VGC for a million things. they were also willing to say, we are going to start over. Like there are no, it is a whole new polka dex except for the few things that you get in, in the safari zone. You are not getting into the old stuff. You are starting over in a brand new region

David Hernandez: 16:33

the first Dex exit. Yeah.

Greg Leathermen: 16:34

everything new. You have never seen these things before. they really did. And I mean it's important to the story that you're half on land and half on water. Like they are tying the land to the story that you're being told there is not enough land. There is not enough water and you are forced to deal with the two sides of this island structure of, okay. Like one group is literally you run outta land and now you're on the water and you're like, okay, well there's also too much water. So what is going, like, they really did try to do something there. They really tried to create two very unique, interesting, nuanced, I mean they only could do so much, but like the philosophies of aqua and magma, both sort of wanting the same thing but really coming at it at two different ways and depending on which game you played, you were getting one or the other perspective, like they really did a lot of really interesting things with just sort of expanding the world, getting deliberate about their design, getting deliberate about the Pokemon that they are going to include in a region. While it is far from a perfect game, although I think Emerald is probably one of the best in the series, you can tell that they were beginning to think, oh, okay, so what is this series going to be in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years? What are we putting as the roots to build off of? And I think you can really feel that in gen three.

David Hernandez: 18:05

And a lot of stuff that we did in gen three still exist today. They solidified the items. There's no longer PRZ berry. There's, you know, lum berries, cherry berries, and all this. You've got double bowels, you alluded to, and you've got this whole idea of. They start asking bigger questions. Now how they answer those of courses differently? I think they try to come to middle ground.'cause you think of, I think it's called Pacific Log to where I think they build the bridges on top of the sea. Kind of maybe leaning towards like, oh you can still kind of build on top of the sea despite you not really needing land. And then you got the top of the city, which is built inside of a crater.

Greg Leathermen: 18:39

Yeah.

David Hernandez: 18:39

And I think they kind of try to address the answer that way. Just it's not as clear because it's, some of it's, yeah, it's just not as clear. And you know, like I said, you, you said you saw Pokemon's not gonna be that

Greg Leathermen: 18:48

Mm-hmm.

David Hernandez: 18:49

like this. The answer, this has gotta be way for, that's just not who they Yeah. Always been. But sometimes it leaves stuff like this very nuanced. The one that always comes to mind for me is of course black and white to where they ask actually a very good question of are we kind of a enslaving these Pokemon? Or in some ways are we having these Pokemon, you know, they should be free kind of thing. And they don't really double down on it.

Greg Leathermen: 19:11

it's really, they really had a chance to answer it it's not a difficult answer to come to. I think a lot of people sort of, if you look at the capture mechanics and how they actually. Sort of present to you this works. Like the biggest clue, that answers that question is you cannot capture something that has been knocked out because they have to be conscious to agree to enter the pact, right? Like that is a huge part of how that ga that they don't ever really say. But if you look at the game mechanics and understand, they are clearly saying the creature has to be awake and aware to be willing to agree to being captured, to being a part of this team. That if you knock them out, they are no longer available to you. They cannot. Agree become part of this team. Like it is an important, it is a thing that's been a part of that game that entire time. And they walked up to that doorstep and then just walked away said, well just go beat him up.

David Hernandez: 20:21

Yeah.

Greg Leathermen: 20:21

And then again, just beat up the bad guy and we don't have to think about it. And I think game plays with the idea of people wondering, am I really not in a good relationship with this thing? And the interesting is they give you so many examples of how it is a mutual re relationship, but they never really offer an answer like n being able to pull Pokemon. Like if you watch how N progresses through those teams, every time you fight him, he's fighting with Pokemon from the areas that you're in. His

David Hernandez: 20:53

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 20:53

Stay consistent because he is pulling on that relationship of things that trust him will fight for him because he can speak to them and then they, and then they're set free. He doesn't believe philosophically in forming a permanent attachment. And through that time, he is also commenting on the bond you have with your captured Pokemon, the level of trust. And they keep, they walk up to the door and just refuse to open it. And that's part of the thing where I'm like, it, it, it, all the pieces are there. Just be bold and make the statement, just say, this is how it is.

David Hernandez: 21:31

And I mean, it's not that controversial statement'cause that's really what Pokemon's built on is that relationship. So it makes no sense for that, at least to not be kind of doubled down. Like, no, you aren't slave in Pokemon. We're working together. And then, I don't know. That's been something that, it's one of the few critiques, but that's something you have to kind of dig deep and really think about. That's bugged me when it comes to black and white. Love the games, love the story. But

Greg Leathermen: 21:52

great.

David Hernandez: 21:53

yeah,

Greg Leathermen: 21:53

but yeah, they, again, they are just, they are afraid to, put answers in stone and that, that has always been a thing that I'm like, just come on, just please just answer one of your questions.

David Hernandez: 22:07

we never found out who Ash's dad is, and I'm still winning to this day.

Greg Leathermen: 22:11

I mean, the funny thing about like the first games is they are clearly commenting on the devastation of World War ii, right? Like, this is a post World War ii, world surge is from America who talked in the war. you know, it is definitely Japan's missing generation. Like you can talk about it, like how devastating, like a lot of kids didn't have parents because. The effects of, of war took out a generation like they, again, they hint to it and it is very much a part of their culture. They just won't answer that question. Like, yeah, Ash's dad probably didn't survive

David Hernandez: 22:50

The, maybe he really did go on a journey and

Greg Leathermen: 22:53

Japanese people didn't survive post World War ii.

David Hernandez: 22:57

mm

Greg Leathermen: 22:57

We did, we did a bad, we did a bad there.

David Hernandez: 23:02

just a little bit.

Greg Leathermen: 23:03

A little bad.

David Hernandez: 23:42

Let's ask like, what's, what Pokemon do you like? What's your favorite? Let's start there.

Greg Leathermen: 23:46

Oh, my favorite is Rosalea forever,

David Hernandez: 23:49

Why rose?

Greg Leathermen: 23:50

so when I saw it in gen three, it was. Everything that I think makes a good Pokemon design. It's expressive. It immediately had a personality. It looks like a creature that fits into nature. It has a very natural feel, but still has a lot of expression to it. I don't necessarily agree with the typing'cause I think there's way too many poison grass types. but I think they really sort of hit what I think is, makes a good Pokemon design. Something that feels like it is part of a natural world, like these little forces of nature that slide like Pikachu being an electric mouse. Like it is a mouse that feeds on electricity, like it feels like an outcropping of the natural world. And Rose really felt that same way to me. Plus I just think it has personality for days. Like it's just. It's got so much expression in its face for how basic its face is, and they can do so much with it.

David Hernandez: 24:52

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 24:52

Um, particularly in the Colosseum and

David Hernandez: 24:55

Yes, I was about to say. So

Greg Leathermen: 24:57

1000% was my favorite. Yeah, I love it.

David Hernandez: 25:00

yeah. What is that? I think it's when it gets attacked, it has its roses on the hips and it just goes like,

Greg Leathermen: 25:04

falls back and then gets mad on its and saunters forth. Pure genius. Love it.

David Hernandez: 25:11

One that I always think of. It's more recent. Flamingo is one of my favorites. It

Greg Leathermen: 25:15

great.

David Hernandez: 25:15

is so simple, but it has so much depth to it to where it's a fighting symbol and it's a flight. It's a fighting bird, and I just love it to death. Oh my gosh.

Greg Leathermen: 25:24

like a giant foot.

David Hernandez: 25:29

What about the evolution? What about gen four with the rosary? You know, you got Badu and then it got the evolution with rosary. Do you still have that kind of same fondness, or did it not get to you as much?

Greg Leathermen: 25:38

line. I think the thing that keeps me from really loving Rose raid they made the choice to not make the pou kts detailed. If you look

David Hernandez: 25:49

Mm.

Greg Leathermen: 25:49

they are very plain and they are very abstract in a lot of ways. So you, so, so you went from a really detailed flower to a very abstract bouquet shape. And I, I don't enjoy it. I think it was a misstep if they had just added a few more lines of detail to actually show that their flowers, I think I would like it more. I mean, I still really love the line, but me from it from being in my top 10 because I just think they really just weren't intentional with that part of the design.

David Hernandez: 26:25

I know you love the role playing aspect, you love the story. You mentioned gen three after, you know, gen four and beyond, like what are some of, what's another story that you enjoyed?

Greg Leathermen: 26:34

Um, I think the best story in all of the games is the story of Sunden Moon. I think they really told a generation of kids who grew up. Playing these games, Hey, maybe your parents weren't great and you should probably go to therapy to talk about it. Um, because they really tackled an incredibly important family dynamic. Like how do you deal with family trauma?

David Hernandez: 27:08

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 27:08

with a narcissistic parent? and also showing a group of new parents like this is a game that isn't a generation where they'd be introducing this to their kids and they're playing it together and they're being confronted with, here's the damage that can be done through parenting to children. Here is sort of the responsibility that you now have as the next generation, as you're introducing your kids to these games. Look at the effect that parents have on children and maybe examine and. What you're doing how you are. And think about the weird, about family dynamics, think about how kids grow, think about all these things and inde what independence for kids means. Like this is a really small contain story of here's family dynamics set against, again, a universe that's sort of out of control. But again, that's saying you are parents in a chaotic world where very bad things are happening here. Let's talk about your responsibility. Like so many parental bonds are represented in those games. Some of them are really good and some of'em are broken. Like are so many ways they comment on family in that game. And I think it's really a great view into. Kids and parents, the damage that they do to each other, how they work through that, how you can work through that. What are good examples? I just think it's a really brilliantly done story set in sort of this fantastical, oversized world.

David Hernandez: 28:52

And I think that's kind of going to show that on your point, I think about, you know, when I grew up, my dad was more the old school. Macho, you don't play kitty stuff kind of game, but that's just the time period he grew on. Now you've got people who are becoming parents who grew up with Pokemon. How do you approach that question to where, how do you engage with your, kids in that way to where you say like, this is what happens. Like you said, if you don't have the right role model, this is what happens when you've got somebody who doesn't have your best interest in the child.'cause that happens so much, and like you said, it points to like try to be something different, try to be something that's better and hopefully leave a better lasting impression,

Greg Leathermen: 29:34

Yeah, those

David Hernandez: 29:36

but

Greg Leathermen: 29:36

brilliant.

David Hernandez: 29:37

mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 29:37

just, I just think they re and the, and the problem is, is they sort of ruined the story and Alt Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon are better games,

David Hernandez: 29:45

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 29:45

is way worse. They really stepped away from, of how really bad loosening is in Sun and Moon. They really sort of try to give her more justification for how she is, which is like, you didn't really, you didn't need it. Like you could have kept the story the same. It, it, it is an important story that I think they really felt like maybe we sort of stepped on parents to a little bit too hard. We'll back off a, the adult ultrasound ultra moon. Um, but I, I do think it is very. Good and intentional when they take time to think about who their entire audience is and how they wanna speak to them. And I think Sun and Moon is a prime example of considering kids and adults playing that game.

David Hernandez: 30:30

Now around that time, there was actually a mobile game that I heard was very popular and I wanted to know, it's called Pokemon Go. I think you've heard it. Maybe. How was that, whenever it came out? Were you kind of involved? Like how deep did you get into that game?

Greg Leathermen: 30:43

I mean, it was, first year of Pokemon Go was phenomenal and super exciting, even though the game didn't work very well, like it would have a map. It's like there's a Pokemon two feet away and you'd go there and like nothing. No, there's not, there's nothing here. It was super, super exciting because the promise of the game could be felt endless. Right? Like you really felt like this is, I am taking these things on a journey with me. I am longer in a solitary, in-house personal game. I am walking out in the world and finding other people who are also walking out in the world, who are the joy of Pokemon in a very communal way. Um, and I think it was so exciting. It was so fun. when you didn't know how the game really worked and you'd run into people and you're like, okay, there's something down here. I just, I just ran into it. Let's go down here. It was on this corner. And you'd go to that corner and try to find it. And then of course the map wasn't working. You're like, okay, well it's not working. Or my game just locked up and froze. So,

David Hernandez: 31:53

Yeah,

Greg Leathermen: 31:53

oh well, It was super fun. It was super exciting. yeah, I had a lot of fond memories about that summer. Uh, it's, it was also everybody sort of knew up here in the northern states that this was a limited, this is a limited thing.'cause it was soon to going to be very hard to walk outside. it's like when it gets to be negative 60 up here, I'm like, I'm not, not going out there. I'm not, I'm

David Hernandez: 32:17

but,

Greg Leathermen: 32:18

down the block.

David Hernandez: 32:19

you're supposed to travel the lands, Greg. You're supposed to like get out there and you're

Greg Leathermen: 32:23

The lands are trying to kill me right now. No, thank you. Uh, I'm out. I'm gonna sit in here

David Hernandez: 32:29

in the heater.

Greg Leathermen: 32:30

and where it's warm. Uh, and then like the cracks began to show like, people in rural areas were having real hard time with the game because without people they wouldn't spawn. things spawned more in cities and not in parks and nature, which sort of felt like.

David Hernandez: 32:48

Yeah.

Greg Leathermen: 32:48

not how this game is supposed to work. Like these are, like when you're in cities in the game, there aren't Pokemon around. Then you go out into the grass and there are, and it's very different and go.

David Hernandez: 32:59

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 32:59

for that first year, I think it was just super, super exciting just to have, a cultural phenomenon to have so many people all excited about this one thing and we all got to share in it. Like, I'll never forget that first year. It was just a super, it was just super fun.

David Hernandez: 33:16

And that's always been something that's bugged me with Pokemon Go, like your example. I've always wished that it was more nature. I wish Pokemon you had to go out and search for in that way. But if you know you go to a parking lot, that's where the best way to catch Pokemon is. It's so counterintuitive and it ruins the idea of what Pokemon Go was built on,

Greg Leathermen: 33:34

Yeah.

David Hernandez: 33:35

you can travel around and catch random Pokemon and I don't know that I didn't catch it right away. It took me a couple years. I was more addicted to it, but slowly became more of what is Pokemon Go really about. It just seemed like it's more of just getting people this one location for an event and that's it. And it's slowly has become, that's all the game has become. It's been a shell of what it's formed self, in my opinion.

Greg Leathermen: 33:59

I mean, it, it is, its former self, that's, that's sort of the problem. and it fundamentally hasn't It is the same game we had in 2016. They've added a few more things, but ultimately it's the same game has the same mechanics that ask you to do the same things. As they are now pushing more of the games and it's like a limited polka deck and you should catch all these things and we give you special things. The catching of things in that game no longer feels unique or surprising. Like we know all the Pokemon exist, like we know what you're putting in your game and we know how you're gonna drip feed them. like I still play the game on and off.

David Hernandez: 34:48

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 34:48

you know, I still interact with Pokemon stuff, but, I don't know what their future needs to look like to really breathe a lot of life back into the game. it's an old game, like it is by most standards for most people. An ancient game.

David Hernandez: 35:07

Take it this way. Imagine if you played Pokemon Red Balloon yellow for years, like eventually, as much as we love Gen one,

Greg Leathermen: 35:13

we have been playing those games for 30 years and I if, if we get another Canto game for the 30th, which I know we're going to, and I know I'm gonna buy it, I'm just gonna be mad about it because I'm so tired of going to Canto. I have been to Canto so many times now. No,

David Hernandez: 35:30

right. I've always said, we're gonna get a cantos legends game. That's what we're gonna get into the 30th anniversary.

Greg Leathermen: 35:35

no, no. I don't want it. I don't want, I would be, actually, I would be happy with a sequel or a Prequel to canto something that's not the same game. Like if we get a sequel, like, here is Canto, 30 years later, would 100% go back to

David Hernandez: 35:52

Oh, so you don't mind that? You just don't want to see a rehash of the

Greg Leathermen: 35:55

play that game again. I have played it. I played the first ones. I played Fire, red Leaf Green. I have played, let's Go Pikachu and Evie. I had to play through it. Every time I've played gen two, I have to go back to that region and do it all over again with no changes. I have played the death out of that original game. I want something new.

David Hernandez: 36:18

Greg's going off. I love it. I know that I had a chance to meet you briefly at Go Fest, New York City,

Greg Leathermen: 36:27

Yep.

David Hernandez: 36:28

and I want to ask, so like, is that the only, I'm sure you've been to other live events for Pokemon. What are some of the other ones you've gone to and what has it been like to go to those?

Greg Leathermen: 36:36

so I, again, having come to an adult. For this series, I had money to travel. Things I've done, I did all the mall tours.

David Hernandez: 36:45

Oh, wow.

Greg Leathermen: 36:46

I went to the one that was the Mall of America. I've done all the mall tours to go there and play. And so mal tours were important'cause like, there was a bug in Ruby and Sapphire. There's no internet, right? Like you can't download a patch,

David Hernandez: 37:00

Right.

Greg Leathermen: 37:01

you had to go. So I went to there to get my game patch so it would work properly. Um, and then just being around a bunch of people again, it's was awkward at that time'cause it was still early in the series and it was still very much a kid series. So being an adult at this place without children of my own, like, you'd have to find the other adults around your age and be like, okay, we're just all playing this game and we're

David Hernandez: 37:25

Yeah.

Greg Leathermen: 37:25

And like, they didn't have divisions of tournaments then. So if you were gonna do VGC. You were like, hi, I am 30 and my opponent is 12. this is not how this should be working. This is not cool people. but, but they were super fun. Like they are really invested, I think, in trying to build a solid community. And those events were a way in the very beginning to sort of find other people like you from around the world when we didn't really have an easy way to communicate with each other and just sort of buy merch and just be immersed in the world that they're creating and just have fun with it and be like, this is just a dumb thing I do for fun. And I'm here to look at all the fun things and take pictures and just sort of play these games in a communal environment and enjoy it. so yeah, I've done all the mall tours. I've done a lot of the go fests. I've done Chicago's and. I have never done a world I need to, worlds always falls at a really awkward time where I'm like, I can't make that work.'cause I have a nine to five job and I only have so much vacation

David Hernandez: 38:31

Right.

Greg Leathermen: 38:31

this is problematic.

David Hernandez: 38:32

like to have money to come in so I can keep doing this stuff future. So it's kind of important. Yeah.

Greg Leathermen: 38:36

funds and vacation time to be able to do these things. So, but I've done some of the minor regionals I've done, I've kind of visited because I just enjoy meeting the community. Um, it's fun to meet people who would, who listen to the show and meet them and just talk to them. Like actually connect with people who. Have heard my voice, but we've never met, like, you know me more than I've ha I have no clue who you people are, but I have been in your ears for a long time, and so it's fun to be able to meet people who have listened to things that I've done and and just have a chance to have it other way for a change to actually have a conversation instead of a one-way talk.

David Hernandez: 39:19

that makes sense.'cause that's what I've always enjoyed about.'cause unfortunately I never got a chance to do the malls. My first Pokemon event was going to go fest and then I started going to regionals and it's just so much fun to be around people who love Pokemon just as much as you are.'cause if you're shelling money out for this event, no matter what it is, you're a diehard Pokemon fan to some degree.

Greg Leathermen: 39:36

a fan.

David Hernandez: 39:36

Yeah, you're a fan. And it's just such a unique experience. So I've always loved going to'em, love meeting the people. The Pokemon's almost kind of second nature to a way, so,

Greg Leathermen: 39:44

yeah.

David Hernandez: 39:45

yeah.

Greg Leathermen: 39:46

It's the foundation upon everything else is being built, all the interactions, everything. You have a common language and then you're branching out from there. And I, I always, I've always enjoyed it.

David Hernandez: 39:57

One thing I kind of want to ask you, I know originally your interested with Pokemon started'cause you really loved RPGs and obviously, you know, Pokemon is an RPG game to where you know you got to explore the world. I. What is it about rpg just in general that kind of entices you, not just even just on a Pokemon, but just on a regular level compared to other types of games?

Greg Leathermen: 40:15

So RPGs are, like an interactive novel. The good ones are telling you a story. The good ones are making you think about the world in new and interesting ways. The good ones are telling you things In a very interactive, personal way where you are sort of like confronted with somebody else's ideologies and are working through both mentally what they're telling you, but also like I am making choices and my choices are affecting this world, and what does that mean in this frame of this world that I've found myself in? they are a great way to engage a new audience and tell new stories to, we as a species thrive on stories. We learn about each other through stories. We can get other viewpoints and get a sense of what it's like to experience them stories and role-playing games. The ones that really do that well, really can expand your. Understanding of the world around you and build in ideas that you can sort of sit with and think, is this something that I'm accepting of? Am I resisting this? Why am I resisting? what is happening here? Why do I feel uncomfortable? Why do I have to make this choice? I think you can really learn a lot through RPGs that you don't get with like a platformer. Like, I don't care why Mario's jumping a couple of mushrooms, and then I get to the end. And of course the princess isn't there because the game has to continue. Like there's nothing there other than a skill check, right? Like

David Hernandez: 42:05

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 42:06

just a skill check. That's a dexterity game. That's me figuring out patterns. I'm not sort of being confronted with much. In my own story or in my own life where role-playing games and in general really do have that component of you are stepping into a role and you are being put through a series of things and it's going to leave you with something at the end.

David Hernandez: 42:31

It kind of reminds me of there's some, like I say, I call it quick card and art that makes you kind of think a bit, A lot of people prefer the former. And they just enjoy it. Like maybe it's just a catchy tune or maybe it's just very shallow. Like, like you said, once you do it, it's more skills beyond just like telling a story, telling kind of a message in a way. And it's fun for a bit, but eventually that stuff kind of gets old. It goes very fast. But when you talk about story stuff, it challenges your view in a way to where you have to think about it a little bit. You have to really kind of chew on what this video or what the game or the source the media is telling you. And it's like, do I, what do I think about this? What is it that I like and what do I dislike and what do I agree and disagree? And you can keep going back to it. I think that's what makes Pokemon so great is that that's why we keep going back because you get to kind of relive it and from a fresher eyes, even as you get older, to where the story that I may have related to in let's say gen two or Gen one doesn't meet up to what I thought it used to be. As I grow older and sometimes you miss things and you point things out as you mature.

Greg Leathermen: 43:35

You also, do you have experience? Like you will look at things and be like, okay, that's, no they wouldn't. Why are they doing that? That doesn't make, why would they make that choice?

David Hernandez: 43:46

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 43:47

doing, why are they doing? But I also think one of the strengths of Pokemon is, you know, everybody talks about, you know, they wanna take their Pokemon team with them'cause they've built memories with these creatures that, that is the power of playing games and storytelling games. And then it also in particular, is. Even as basic as I went through a region and got eight badges. I went through a region and went eight badges with a team of friends, and I'm very bonded to these friends now. these creatures mean something to me and I, I have very strong memories tied to them, and I want to carry them forward with me. I want to be able to continue to remember that even if I didn't care about Aqua and Magma together, we went through this journey we won, and that is a meaningful thing for me.

David Hernandez: 44:43

Hmm. I just thought of an example, Pokemon Coliseum.

Greg Leathermen: 44:46

Mm-hmm.

David Hernandez: 44:47

of my favorite games to play, partly'cause it's very edgy. I was very grungy as a kid growing up to that. I love that attempt that they were doing. I thought it was such a very cool idea. I still think to this day, it's kind of cool. You have a organization team stagnant and you had this one guy who just kind of breaks away and just carries the machine. And I really enjoyed it, you know, as growing up. And then I went to play it later on and I saw kind of the flaws in some of the game, not the game. Well that demon has flaws, but also the story was telling. We never found out why he went away from Team Staman. We never found out why he all of a sudden just makes a good leaf out. Just'cause of reasons. And I mean, I run into the same issue with, I think it's gen six with mega evolutions. It bugs the hell outta me. People love him to death. But for me, I'm older when I experienced them,

Greg Leathermen: 45:34

Mm-hmm.

David Hernandez: 45:34

I don't get the mechanics behind them. I don't get why we want to inflict pain to get this extra power. They don't ever really address this kind of relationship, if that makes sense.

Greg Leathermen: 45:44

interesting because That isn't that much of a, of a leap because we as humans that as well. We will inflict pain on ourselves to succeed, and we will especially do that with people that we trust. They just never make it explicit in the games again, they walk to the door but never through the

David Hernandez: 46:06

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 46:07

and you are really left to sort of figure out, well why? would these creatures do this? What is it about that bond that they are willing to risk pain a short-term boost of power? there's a lot to sort of talk about in there of what does that say about our relationship? What does that say about the relationship again, between these creatures and humans? It is clearly not a one-way street. It is clearly a two-way street. But they just won't walk through the door, right? Like they just won't. We are just sort of left with own feelings about it. How do we justify it? Is it justifiable? I mean, I do think it is justifiable because it is clearly shown to be a trust mechanism where they are deciding to go beyond their limits and trust that you will take care of them be able to succeed. Like it is a very important, powerful thing, that they're able to do. only some of them can do it and you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

David Hernandez: 47:15

Yeah,

Greg Leathermen: 47:16

Uh, and again, why is, they don't really explain why is there stones involved other than it has to be a mechanic. Like, you just sort of have to be like, oh, okay, whatever.

David Hernandez: 47:26

unless she,

Greg Leathermen: 47:26

the power. Whatever,

David Hernandez: 47:27

unless she got

Greg Leathermen: 47:28

Fine.

David Hernandez: 47:28

though, ZA is kind of the little special stepchild of course.

Greg Leathermen: 47:32

Well, I mean, they break their own rules

David Hernandez: 47:33

Uh,

Greg Leathermen: 47:34

regularly. I.

David Hernandez: 47:34

that's fair. Now we're gonna see Greg. Mega evolution.

Greg Leathermen: 47:38

Uh, I mean, I'm not a huge fan of mega evolutions. I don't think it's, I, the reason why I like Dynamax better is'cause it's, everything can dynamax whereas only select things could mega without a good reason why only effects select things could mega. So I just like, I think they needed to explore it more and they just didn't

David Hernandez: 47:55

Yeah. Maybe we will get lucky with a za. Eh, I don't have faith, but maybe you never know.

Greg Leathermen: 48:01

maybe, I doubt it. They don't like walking through doors.

David Hernandez: 48:05

No, we're just gonna have another door at that point.

Greg Leathermen: 48:07

Yeah. We're have more doors. This is all doors all the way

David Hernandez: 48:10

Oh my gosh, Greg, one last thing I wanna talk about is, of course, people who know you from being a, a part of it's super effective. And I want to like, talk about how did that first happen and what made you want to become a podcaster when it comes to Pokemon?

Greg Leathermen: 48:25

So this is, it's kind of a weird story that I didn't become a podcaster until I was in my forties, and it was really a situation where I'd listened to the show for a while. I'd listened to, its super perfect for a while. but I was also listening to other podcasts and one of'em was the Tuesday Night Games podcast. And, they were all talking about how Steve had never played Dungeons and Dragons, and I had always wanted to do Pokemon in the Dungeons and Dragons world.

David Hernandez: 48:58

Ooh, yes.

Greg Leathermen: 48:59

and was sort of at that point an amateur game designer. I mean, I still technically am, except people would say since I sell games, I'm actually a professional, but a hobby career, so I don't get, I'm still an amateur. but I was like, I will run you through. This is an idea that I've had. I've worked out a, a class, I've worked out how I think it should work at the game. cause I was, I've always been a person that hacks together. Games like no Roleplaying game. I don't like 100% of every roleplaying game. I always figure out like, well I don't like how it does this, so I'm just gonna change it.

David Hernandez: 49:31

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 49:32

Um, so I, like, I figured out how to do this class. I figured out how to do it and like I would happy to be just to run you all through what I think a Pokemon d and d world would be like. And Steve was like, okay, but if I'm going to do this, I wanna record it. And so that was how I got into podcasting. cause we recorded Mythical, which is our d and D Pokemon podcast. And we did that for a couple of years. And then, through just general changes, people leaving the ISEI stepped in sort of temporarily and then for a very long time.

David Hernandez: 50:06

And then it's kind of cool'cause everybody still remembers you to this day. What is it like, I'm sorry, you said earlier how you go to these events and people have heard your voice for so long. What is it kind of like to be able to see, meet these fans who've listened to the show?

Greg Leathermen: 50:20

I mean, I love it. it's funny because my boss, who I work for now, I was laid off from my old job and I was looking for a new job, and when I went into the interview process, the recruiter's like, oh, they're really, really excited to talk to you. And I'm like, okay, cool. Because I'm like, great. They like my resume. And so I launched interview and the very first thing Mike, now boss said to me, he's like, I just wanna tell you that I listened to the show. And I'm like, oh, you know, way too much about me.

David Hernandez: 50:50

Wow.

Greg Leathermen: 50:51

about entering into this. Like, you know a lot about me'cause you have listened to my voice and my dumb stories for a long time. Um, it's very exciting. I, what I love is hearing the impact that I've had on people both positively and sometimes negatively. Like sometimes it's hard to know, like you said, X, Y, and Z and that was really hurtful and like, that wasn't a viewpoint that I had had before. Thank you for telling me that. Sharing your story with me, it gives me insight as to a bigger part of the world. But a lot of people, it's just really great to have conversations with people who find joy in just listening to me talk dumb for an hour and get stuff out of that and, it helps alleviate stress in their day. I, all of those things are the reasons why I still am in podcasting in many forms is to provide entertainment relief to help get. Other ideas out there, like I won't lie. It, it is not great. Sometimes being a gay man a family podcast, people have a lot of strong feelings about whether or not I should be talking about it.

David Hernandez: 52:01

Yeah, I'm sure.

Greg Leathermen: 52:03

I'm going to let you know this is the life I live. It, We are here, there we, there's a lot of us and it's fine. you may have questions about it and I don't have a problem answering those questions. And if I'm the only person you have ever heard in reality, cool. Now you know one. And maybe that'll change how you view the world.

David Hernandez: 52:28

And I think that's kinda the fun part about Pokemon is that it crosses all those lines that we kind of borders those walls. Religion, sexual orientation, gender, whatever you want to kind of call it, and allows us to kind of connect with Pokemon and experience each other's stories in a way, because as you said, you know, uh, as a gay man, you have a different, uh, story than the creator. Me, I'm pretty straight. Or, maybe a woman has a different story than a guy. And you know, for me, the biggest thing that I've been surprised just starting this podcast. Is how much women were not allowed to play video games. It threw me for a loop

Greg Leathermen: 53:01

Mm-hmm.

David Hernandez: 53:02

and I won't go as much detail, but they always been told like, oh, they were either not allowed because it's a guy thing or they were told that, oh, just'cause you're a woman, you can't do it. And I've never experienced that and that's been probably my biggest eye-opening experience doing this.

Greg Leathermen: 53:17

It's, it's You'll bump into the weird. Lines people have that make no sense a lot. and if I had any hand in breaking down any of those lines for people, I'm more than happy to have done it.

David Hernandez: 53:34

Mm-hmm.

Greg Leathermen: 53:34

If any time you had to sit down and honestly think about X, Y, Z and I've had a number of people who have come to me have said, I was very against this. You made me confront these things and sit down and honestly think, why do I believe these things? What is going on?'cause this person is clearly what I was led to believe. Like a lot of people were, are shocked Like I was probably the first person they ever have ever heard. I, my anniversary is Friday. We've been married, we've been together for 32 years.

David Hernandez: 54:12

Oh, happy anniversary.

Greg Leathermen: 54:13

Thank you. But for a lot of people, they're like. I've never heard of a gay relationship that was, as long as my parents are, I'm like, yeah, we exist. They just, nobody will ever show it to you.

David Hernandez: 54:25

Right.

Greg Leathermen: 54:25

been together for 32 years now. and it's funny'cause a lot of these people I meet, they're like, oh, you've been together longer than I've been alive. I'm like, I am aware. I am aware of that dynamic. Thank you.

David Hernandez: 54:39

Yep. Yep. For me, this is the last thing I'll touch on this topic. One time I got offered to come on a podcast, to talk And I had just, we were scheduled to record on a Thursday or Friday. I had just released an episode that Wednesday, and it was one of my guests who were trans,

Greg Leathermen: 54:58

Mm-hmm.

David Hernandez: 54:59

and they messaged me real quick. I'm like, you have, they had such a big issue about the guests being trans. And I'm like, why does it matter? Like, I've had guests who are black, white, and who are also gay before, like, why does this matter? And they said, oh, I'm gonna have to take it to, uh, my group to review it. And I said, are they gonna listen to the episode? I'm like, I can't promise anything. And you know, lo and behold they said, oh, we wanna withdraw the offer of having as a guest. And I'm like, that's probably a good thing. Like if you can't even sit through an episode just to hear somebody talk about Pokemon who's trans, I probably don't even want to be on your show. Like, I'm just gonna be straight with you. And it just, that was just so startling. It's just, I'm not even trans. I'm a straight Hispanic male. I have no qualms about it. I'm, but for some reason because I had them on as a guest, it bugged them. And that's just some of the world you live in or not the world you live in. That's kind of the stuff you kind of miss.

Greg Leathermen: 56:01

yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I. Lived it in the eighties, right?

David Hernandez: 56:06

Yeah.

Greg Leathermen: 56:07

the world we're in now is not the world that I grew up in. and you know, those stories will never surprise me. That is my lived experience. That is it has been like to maneuver through this world. so I'm like, yep, they absolutely uninvited you. Like that was not a surprise ending thing for me. Not at all. Like Yep. That tracks, that's how people are.

David Hernandez: 56:33

Well, Greg, I want to ask this question.'cause you know, as a gay man,

Greg Leathermen: 56:36

Mm-hmm.

David Hernandez: 56:36

know, it slowly has become more acceptable to a degree compared to back then, you know, obviously maybe some less than others. You talked about earlier how, you know, you were older when it came to Pokemon. how did you kind of stay, I guess, grounded and positive in Pokemon, knowing that you weren't fully accepted

Greg Leathermen: 56:56

I mean, You don't have a choice, but people sort of think like, don't have a choice. We don't have a choice to opt out of society. don't have a choice to just be like, I'm not dealing with this because we can't, I can't walk away from it. I can't not deal with it. And so you just have to become very strong in who you are and be like, that's a you problem. And one of the things is I don't, people don't sort of and I think they get surprised, is it's like

David Hernandez: 57:39

Okay.

Greg Leathermen: 57:39

its heart, Pokemon is a very queer story. are leaving your home with a found family who supports you away from. Everything that you knew and these people are carrying you through to victory. That is at its heart, one of the most basic queer experiences because so many of us are kicked out of our homes and we find people who support us. We find people who fight with us and we will find ways to achieve victory despite whatever stands in our way. And that is such a core heart of what these games are. And I'm always surprised when people are like shocked at it. I'm like, that is my experience. The threat of me being kicked out of my home was very real, but I found people to support me. I found people who, who understood me. I found people who said, I accept for who you are, and I will walk and fight with you. And that. At its heart is what makes Pokemon brilliant.

David Hernandez: 58:53

And on that note, Greg, thank you for coming onto the podcast. Before you go, I want to ask one last Pokemon question.

Greg Leathermen: 59:00

Okay.

David Hernandez: 59:00

What would be your dream team, Pokemon or Dream Pokemon team? What six Pokemon would you bring?

Greg Leathermen: 59:06

Okay. So these are my six. Uh, I recently just redid my rankings. I went through the thing online, redid them. So Resilia is always number one. Save a i is number two. Bolton is number three. Mbbi is number four a, Lola Meac is number five, and Beck's caliber is number six.

David Hernandez: 59:28

That is such a unique team. I love it. Greg, thank you for coming on. The Poker Ball Turns. If people want to connect with you, if they wanna look, check out anything you're working on, where can they go? By all means, please plug away.

Greg Leathermen: 59:40

Um, so you can find all of my games at leatherman games. That's where I sell my games. Uh, and I will hopefully. have a Pokemon related announcement of my own Pokemon adjacent announcement, hopefully soon. So watch out for that. Uh, you can find me on Blue Sky at LIANDRA zero three. You can find me on Instagram at liandra zero three. Those are the easiest way to connect to me. Um, I'm around, I'm not that hard to find. I'm not that hard to find. If you go to leatherman.games, you'll find connections to all my things. Uh, and, and also I think I finally erased my Twitter off that website'cause that place is garbage. but uh, yeah, you can find me there. Uh, you can listen to my actual play podcast also, if you wanna hear more of me running around, uh, which is called Very Random Encounters. then here, I don't know exactly when. I'll be starting a new podcast with my friend Logan called Game Mechanics, where we're talking about game mechanics.