TRAINER'S EYE #42 - "Mapping Your Oddish Adventures" ft. WoodWoseWulf

In this Pokemon interview, we're joined by WoodWoseWulf joining us all the way from Australia. Our guest is a Silph Road Scientist who has been actively involved in the Silph Research Group, a group dedicated to unraveling the mysteries of Pokemon GO. WoodWoseWulf has a unique focus on studying biomes and nests in Pokemon GO and has spent countless hours observing and analyzing the distribution and behavior of Pokemon in different habitats.

Another aspect that sets WoodWoseWulf apart is his involvement with Niantic Wayfarer and Open Street Map. He sheds light on how these have allowed him to contribute to the Pokemon GO community by mapping out new PokeStops and Gyms. Learn about his experiences in shaping the game's landscape and enhancing the gameplay experience for the Pokemon GO community in Australia. This episode promises to be a captivating journey into the world of Pokemon GO. 

Trainer's Eye is a series where the stories are real and people still play this game. From PVP to Shiny Hunting, each person's Pokemon GO journey is unique and we dive into each journey here on As The Pokeball Turns!

Sources
Opening Song: "Forget You" by Alex_MakeMusic from Pixabay

Connect with WoodWoseWulf: Twitter

Chapters

• 0:43 Introduction
• 1:49 Interview with WoodWoseWulf
• 20:10 Skit/Intermission
• 37:44 Thank You For Listening! :)

Transcript

David Hernandez: 0:00

My name is David Hernandez and you're listening to As The Pokeball Turns! Welcome to As The Pokeball Turns. Where the stories are real and people still play this game. Over on the Silph Road, there existed a group of people known as the Silph Research Group, who devoted their time to studying unexplained mechanics, rumors and mysteries in Pokemon Go. With the recent announcement of the Silph Road closing its doors, the future of the group is currently unknown. However, the group's importance can't be understated because they were constantly looking at the percentages of different mechanics within Pokemon Go, such as Lucky trades, hatch rates, and even discovering that raid bosses were easier to catch later in the encounter. And these aren't ancedotes or feelings that you would commonly see on like Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, et cetera. The Silph Research group used numerous experiments and collected data sometimes for even months before recording their findings and releasing'em to the public. My guest for this episode is a former member of the Silph Research group and is here to share his insight into his experience and interest in participating in this section of Pokemon Go. Here's his origin story into the world of Pokemon Go. This is WoodWoseWulf! Today I'm joined by WoodWoseWulf. Welcome to the show.

WoodWoseWulf: 1:54

Hi, David. It's great to be here.

David Hernandez: 1:56

Without a doubt, man, and I think out of all the guests that I've had so far, I think you're probably one of the most technical people who know the behind the scenes of Pokemon Go, if that makes sense.

WoodWoseWulf: 2:07

Yeah, I think it depends what you're talking about, don't ask me about PVP, but depending on the topic, I can definitely fill you in on some stuff a lot of players might not know.

David Hernandez: 2:16

One thing that I was impressed by is your dedication to Wayfarer, and we're gonna dive into more of this later, but you're so dedicated to Wayfarer, that you actually stopped in the middle of a vacation with your wife to submit a way spot, right?

WoodWoseWulf: 2:29

yes. Yeah. In the most southwestern point of Western Australia, which was pretty exciting. I actually got a few in there. It's nice to leave my mark on the game map down that part of Australia.

David Hernandez: 2:40

Like how did that conversation happen with your wife? Like you were just like, honey, can we just stop? Cause I see something eligible right then and there and like go nominate it?

WoodWoseWulf: 2:47

Look, I call her Mrs. Wolf and she's great. She's very, very patient with me. Quite often she'll point things out to me and be like, is that in the game? And she's a Pokemon trainer as well, but, as you know, not everything shows up, so I'm constantly flicking out of the Wayfarer app and the ingress intel map just to make sure things are there or they need to be submitted. She's really, really patient with me of that sort of stuff.

David Hernandez: 3:08

Does she understand like what you're doing and everything?

WoodWoseWulf: 3:11

I think she understands more than she would like to, mostly just because of lectures and discussions we've had about it over time.

David Hernandez: 3:19

Okay. Okay. did y'all start playing Pokemon Go at the same time?

WoodWoseWulf: 3:22

We did! We were actually in the beta together in Australia. So we started the beta back in April 2016. We worked really, really hard in ingress before that to get up to level eight, which we sort of thought would be the threshold for that and we went through that whole process together.

David Hernandez: 3:38

To be fair, I always feel like all of Australia is in the beta version with how Niantic treats y'all.

WoodWoseWulf: 3:42

Yeah, we never really left that field test period.

David Hernandez: 3:47

So outta curiosity, was there any difference between the beta and what we'd eventually get at the launch of Pokemon Go?

WoodWoseWulf: 3:53

There definitely was. Early on, the game was even more basic than it was at launch, so even the teams didn't have names. I originally joined what was called Red Team. Things like spawns were completely different in that you could actually see where the spawn points were. If you go back and Google beta images of the game, you can see little glowing puddles on the ground and that's where Spawn points occurred, and it was almost a one-to-one match with what Ingress had for xm, which is where you gather energy to do your actions in the game. There was definitely a big discrepancy in Spawns. Niantic, to their credit, has actually done a lot to improve the spawn rates in rural areas. One of the first things I did when the game came out was go out into my local state forest, and it was so disappointing because there was just nothing there, there was no glowing puddles, no Pokemon at all. And over the years it's really improved a lot. Also the footstep tracker was there, but it actually displayed distance early on, so you could actually see the Pokemon around you and there would be a little indicator that you know, the Pidgeys 10 meters away, the Rattata is 20 meters away, which is really cool. And even differences, like the map, the buildings were displayed completely differently, so they actually looked a lot more like buildings. They stood almost as high as you play a character. So there were little differences and as the beta went on, there was changes as well that sort of brought the game further from what we saw in the original demos before the game was even available to anyone at all.

David Hernandez: 5:17

So when you mentioned the, distance tracking, was it similar to what we saw, I don't know if you saw the commercials when the commercials, they'd have the Pokemon and they'd have the distance of how far it was. Was that kind of what you were talking about?

WoodWoseWulf: 5:28

Yeah. Yeah. It was a lot closer to that. So you'd open up the nearby and anyone who played in 2016 probably remembers the footsteps distance, where you had the little three paws, the two paws, or the one paw. It was that, but it was even more in depth. So you actually got a meter distance based on where the Pokemon was.

David Hernandez: 5:46

Now what's interesting is you said the puddles, so the puddles, what are they, like, almost like mini portals to where the Pokemon would just summon up when you get close. Was that kind of what it was?

WoodWoseWulf: 5:55

Yeah, so even today, Pokemon appearance set points on the map, so what people call spawn points. In the beta, that was all actually visible, and I'm not sure whether that was ever the intention or whether it was just some part of the debugging process that Niantic had. I actually found it really useful because you knew, especially in more rural locations, whether it was worth going out to somewhere to see whether the Pokemon occurred or not, because there were plenty of places where just Pokemon didn't appear at all, especially in the early days.

David Hernandez: 6:23

So you start Pokemon Go on day one, what was it like playing at that point?

WoodWoseWulf: 6:28

It was really exciting, day one, especially, you know, getting out there and I was in Sydney at the time because I was at work and you saw the gym turnover going absolutely crazy. I started with Bulbasaur. A lot of the field testers in our region all decided to go team instinct and for the first couple of weeks we just absolutely dominated the game board because we knew what was going on while everyone else was still sort of working everything out. It was a lot of fun and just coming from the field test where it was very quiet and there was very limited number of people playing and just all of a sudden seeing everything just explode with activity. It was amazing.

David Hernandez: 7:02

Did you and your wife choose the same team?

WoodWoseWulf: 7:04

We did. Yes. We've always been Instinct. I think being the underdogs, you sort of get that beaten into you, um, you know, instinct for life pretty much.

David Hernandez: 7:15

Yeah, you gotta be very dedicated if you decide to be team instinct because I don't know, it's very difficult to hold onto gyms, especially back in those days when the gym system was more to where only select people could really be involved with it.

WoodWoseWulf: 7:27

Yeah, absolutely. And especially because coins were based on how many gyms you're holding when you claim them. A lot of the team instinct people early on around where I play, made efforts to find gyms hidden in national parks or way out of the way or where people go. We all went out there and claim them to make sure that everyone got their coins and weren't kicked out by the end of each day. It was actually really interesting. I remember one particular time when there was a quarry that was abandoned and there was a gym I think it was a nature regeneration sign. And we all went out there at 11:00 AM to claim it. We were wondering around in the Australian bush with torches on our phones just to make sure everyone got their coins for the day.

David Hernandez: 8:08

It sounds like y'all were very coordinated.

WoodWoseWulf: 8:10

Yeah. Yeah, like there weren't many of us, which I think made it easier, especially being team instinct. It was really, really fun and it was a great vibe for the first few weeks when everyone was still there and, you know, we had come through the field test together. A lot of those people have dropped off over time now, but it's still something I remember very, very fondly.

David Hernandez: 8:29

What was it about Pokemon Go that appealed to you?

WoodWoseWulf: 8:32

To me it was almost like the fulfillment of a childhood dream. I started with Pokemon Red and I grew up in a small country town in Western Australia. My friends and I would often walk around in the bush, essentially what, a lot of people would call the outback and would look at piles of sand and be like,"oh, Sandshrew might live there", or would go collect tadpoles and be like, Poliwag probably around here if Pokemon was real." When Pokemon Go was announced, it just seemed like, wow, this is just the fulfillment of a childhood dream, if that makes sense.

David Hernandez: 9:03

Right. It sounded like instead of living the game through, you know, the handheld series or the main series, that you actually got to experience it and be able to find Pokemon, where you go to on a daily day basis.

WoodWoseWulf: 9:15

Yeah, absolutely, and I think that was the most exciting thing about me for Pokemon Go. I read an early interview with John Hanky where he was talking about even having different soil types affect the type of Pokemon that could appear, and that was just so cool to me.

David Hernandez: 9:31

So you said you started playing Pokemon Red. Did you stick with the Pokemon franchise throughout the entire time or did you tailor off?

WoodWoseWulf: 9:37

Off and on. I played red, and then I played silver, and I loved silver. I thought it was even as a youngster, I kind of recognized how ambitious it was for a Game Boy game. I left home very, very young and I sort of missed gen three, but then I came back and ever since then, Pokemon has been really, really important in my life.

David Hernandez: 9:58

Oh, what's your favorite Pokemon?

WoodWoseWulf: 9:59

it might sound a little bit weird, but I love Oddish and I also love all the little round plant babies. I dunno what it is, whether it's their dumb faces or that they're a little bit different, but I really, really love those sorts of Pokemon,

David Hernandez: 10:12

So any grass types that have like a round face like Sunkern?

WoodWoseWulf: 10:15

Yeah, sunkern, Hoppip, Cottonee, all those sorts of Pokemon.

David Hernandez: 10:18

That is such a unique take. I like it. So what's your primary way to like play the game?

WoodWoseWulf: 10:24

It is probably quite unique, but my favorite way to play this game is to load up some incense, find a hiking trail that's just on the edge of mobile reception, cell phone reception, and just go for a hike and see what appears. I think that's really, really interesting when you can be out in the woods or walking along a beach, maybe walking along a cliffside or in some way that you've never been before, and just experiencing what Pokemon appear there.

David Hernandez: 10:51

It's definitely a lot of fun because usually I take my dogs to, uh, we have state parks here in Texas. I'll take my dogs to like a random trail right outside of the city area and it's so quiet, hardly anybody's around, and I always enjoy seeing. You don't see as many unfortunately, but it's always fun to just walk the trail. It's quiet and you encounter a Pokemon, it can be anything. That was my hope for what the game could be that you could kind of go into like more nature areas and to be able to experience the game the same way you know, we grew up with, in regards to both the games and even with Ash Ketchum in the main series. He got to go to random places and you just find Pokemon no matter where you were.

WoodWoseWulf: 11:28

Yeah, that's the fantasy, right? Like I think every kid at some point in their life kind of imagined doing that. Just going out adventuring in the wilderness, going to different places and telling their own story In the Pokemon world. Some of the Pokemon I have that I hold most fondly, don't have the highest IVs or aren't shiny, they're just Pokemon that I found at certain places doing certain things, and I associate them with those events and those places, and I don't think anyone could really take that away from me.

David Hernandez: 11:58

You were actually a scientist at the Silph research group, is that correct?

WoodWoseWulf: 12:01

That's correct. Yeah.

David Hernandez: 12:03

First off, what is the Silph research group?

WoodWoseWulf: 12:06

The Silph research group is essentially a citizen science group. So, volunteers come in from all over the world, they don't have to have qualification, we take everyone, as long as they're honest with their contributions and they collect data about Pokemon Go. It's probably the largest citizen science group dedicated to a video game in the world, I would be fairly confident to say that, yeah, there's thousands and thousands of members and everyone contributes data about shiny rates, about encounters, about item drops. And what we do is we collate that information and it's published on the Silver Road website to help the community, so that's either through the automated pages that contribute to what species are nesting, shiny rates, rocket encounters, or articles. When we do articles, we do real big, deep dives and look at how mechanics work and on a really, really microscopic level.

David Hernandez: 13:01

Do you know how long these type of researches would take? it sounds like you'll go into very big detail, but like, How long is a typical research and what does it entail normally?

WoodWoseWulf: 13:10

Typically you'd be looking at months and months. One of the problems with the Silph research group was originally structured was that we would spend a lot of time gathering data and the game would change over time. Because Pokemon Go is, you know, you've gotta be on the precipice, you've gotta be publishing what's important to people at that particular time, we've really had to refine how things are done, and that's why we moved to pages that are actually refreshed out of the data that research group is gathering at that particular time. With an article you could be looking at anywhere from a month to three months, but the number of people hours that go into it is hundreds, if not thousands.

David Hernandez: 13:49

Oh, geez. Dang.

WoodWoseWulf: 13:49

Yeah.

David Hernandez: 13:50

So y'all very extensive when it comes to trying to find out about this game?

WoodWoseWulf: 13:54

Yeah, absolutely, it's something that the Silph research group is very, very passionate about and without that passion, I don't think it would actually be possible.

David Hernandez: 14:04

I mean, if you're doing hundreds and hundred hours of research on a mobile game, then I would be strong to disagree on that,

WoodWoseWulf: 14:10

Yeah, absolutely.

David Hernandez: 14:12

So what was your role in regards to, like, how were you involved with the self research group?

WoodWoseWulf: 14:16

I started with the Silph research group in May, 2017. The research group had existed since before Pokemon Go launched and as with a lot of communities that started in 2016, a lot of people who started in them turned over, leaders left, the community changed, and one of the early things that I was really focused on, as I moved into a leadership position there, refreshing the people who are at the top with absolute respect for what those people did early on, but they weren't there anymore or they didn't necessarily have the time. So bringing in a new diverse leadership, working out how to publish faster, and also coming up with ways to get the information to the community in meaningful ways, if that makes sense.

David Hernandez: 15:02

Right, so you're basically trying to build on past re well not build on past research, you're trying to respect it, but you're also having to develop new findings

WoodWoseWulf: 15:09

New findings and also new structures, because the Silph research group isn't just about the publications, it's about having a structure, that actually can make those publications as well. It's about making rules, making boundaries, ensuring that your community's diverse and covers a wide range of experiences, and also has the skills to actually fulfill the requirements of what the research group is aiming to do it as well.

David Hernandez: 15:34

It almost sounds like you had a part-time job. Are they paying you or is this all volunteer

WoodWoseWulf: 15:39

Oh, David, there, there were times when like I, in my real work life, I manage a business and there were times when I was working eight to six and then I was coming home doing minor stuff with the research group, setting an alarm, and then getting up at 3:00 AM to talk to Drnopes who was one of the founders of the Silph Road, making sure that he was across what we were doing, getting his opinions on things and Drnopes has always been great. Very, very supportive of the Silph Road and Pokemon Go in general. And yeah, it was a very, very big commitment, I look back now and I dunno how I did it. I dunno where I found the energy.

David Hernandez: 16:18

That's what I'm saying, dude, like you are a manager, you know, managers work obviously more than the typical eight hours, but you're working like, what, 10 to 12 hours, then you're dedicating another one fourth of your time with the Silph Road. No, I mean, nothing wrong with that, but dude, your schedule was wonky for sure.

WoodWoseWulf: 16:32

for a couple of years it was, some of the other scientists who were still active just basically say You were everywhere, I don't know how you did it. Honestly, I don't know either at that point, but I just, feel like Pokemon Go at that stage in my life was just so important and really, really motivated me and excited me. I think that sort of acted as a bit of a dynamo and just kept me going. One of the things they implemented to sort of help soothe the transition from the old guard, so to speak, to the newer scientists and the scientists who have come in after that. And when I say scientists, it's a rank within the silver research group, which essentially a moderator, somebody who handles the decisions of the day-to-day group. Anyway, one of the things I implemented was an emeritus status, which essentially meant that you're still connected to the group, but you're not necessarily part of the day-to-day operation. That's something I've opted for at this stage in my life, in the Silph Research group, where I can sort of step away. I can be that elderly gentleman in a green sweater looking at the paintings on the walls going, Hmm, this is nice. I, I don't, I don't have to actually have any responsibility, but I can still be there if I'm needed.

David Hernandez: 17:41

It sounds like almost a legacy scientist group for a lack a better

WoodWoseWulf: 17:46

Exactly. And it's hard because sometimes you wanna step in, but at the same time you have to say, well, I've helped these people come up through the ranks and I have to let them fly on their own as well. Something very unique, I think, to the Silph research group in that it extends outwards to other parts of people's lives, and you teach them skills and things that they take elsewhere as well.

David Hernandez: 18:09

It's very difficult to pass things on and I'm realizing that myself as a community leader within my area, that with everything I do, right, and I look back and I'm like, I can't do some of the stuff that I used to. You know, some of the hands in the dirt, trying to build things up. I mean, I know how to do it, but I can't give it the honest effort that it deserves

WoodWoseWulf: 18:28

Right. And that, that's exactly right. Like it's about the honesty. It's about the if you don't feel it anymore, sometimes it's actually best to step aside, and it doesn't mean that you don't like the game, it doesn't mean that you don't like whatever community you're in. It just means that you're not doing the best for it at that particular time.

David Hernandez: 18:46

What made you want to transition to the role you're in now?

WoodWoseWulf: 18:50

It was actually a slow process for me. One of the things that I told myself early on was I was never going to allow myself to become one of those names that's holding the title, but not actually really doing much. And that's, no hate to anyone who came before me because they all did a great job when they were there. But when you see somebody in an organization like the Silph research group who's saying I'm a Silph scientist, but they're not actually active, it gives a false impression of what the group is capable of. I didn't want to be deadweight, I didn't want to give the impression,"Hey Wood's here, he can handle that." over time I felt like my motivation for the game, in that regard of the trying to understand how the game works, were sinking and I was playing the game in other ways that didn't necessarily gel so well with the Silph Research Group and its mission.

David Hernandez: 19:44

Sounds like a conflict of interest?

WoodWoseWulf: 19:46

I dunno if I'd call it a conflict of interest. I wouldn't even say I outgrew it. I think it's more that I was ready to just enjoy the game for what it was and what it is as opposed to trying to peek behind the curtain at every opportunity, if that makes sense.

David Hernandez: 20:01

Oh, that makes sense. You're not interested in making cupcakes, you're more interested in just eating it.

WoodWoseWulf: 20:04

Exactly.

David Hernandez: 20:06

We're gonna take a quick break with a word from our sponsors. We'll be right back. So how do you feel about your new phase? Like do you feel like you made the correct choice?

WoodWoseWulf: 22:49

It's always hard when you see things happen and you wanted to step in and be like, Hey, this is how I would do it, but as I said, you, you, you kind of gotta let the people who you trusted to take over your role, actually take over your role. That's just a fact of life and I think that applies to a lot of things, and it's a really great lesson to learn and take away from that situation.

David Hernandez: 23:10

Oh yeah, without a doubt and it's hard too because you know, you put so much time into it. We're talking, we're not just talking like a couple months. You, this was part of your Pokemon Go journey for what, five years?

WoodWoseWulf: 23:20

Yeah, it was part of my life like, it was like a second job. It was a reality for me. So it's very, very hard to walk away, but you've also gotta be cognizant that when the time comes, you've gotta do it. Otherwise you become harmful.

David Hernandez: 23:35

Now I know one thing you're passionate about, and I'm looking forward to talking about this. It's the Biomes and Nest with Pokemon Go.

WoodWoseWulf: 23:41

Yes,

David Hernandez: 23:42

Was that part of your research or is that just a side project you had?

WoodWoseWulf: 23:46

it was actually something that drew me into the research group in the first place and it's actually something Drnopes and I talked about a lot as well, and eventually he reached out to me and said,"Hey, I really want you to focus on this wherever you can in the research group." It's very, very difficult though because biomes are incredibly complex and it's something that the research group has never really managed to work out a hundred percent. And I think since seasons when things have become even more complicated, you know, they change every three months and things are pulled in and out, and then you've got events all over the place as well. It becomes very, very difficult to understand. Early on though, biomes was my main motivation for trying to understand this game when I first started playing. I live on the New South Wales Central Coast and it's a very, very geographically diverse location, so I had access to a huge number of different biomes, and it goes back to that story I was telling about walking through the Australian bush of my friends and it's the realization of that fantasy. I spent a lot of time standing on street corners on S two cell lines, trying to work out what things were what, if that makes sense. Working out,"oh, Voltorb stops spawning at this particular point, and then Pidgey starts spawning here. What does that mean? And I think that still remains one of the great mysteries of Pokemon Go, especially early Pokemon Go.

David Hernandez: 25:08

You know, it's funny you say that cuz it's, hard for me to fathom that there's a mystery with this game still, how much people dig into the code, with how much people play this game. There are still things we don't understand with this game.

WoodWoseWulf: 25:20

and I think in some ways that's almost art, right? It's not just, oh, this is the numbers that appear. It's something more than that. it's something that's really, really exciting and it's also something that only Pokemon Go can offer or a game like Pokemon Go. On the other hand, nest, they're a lot simpler, they're related to open street map features like parks, recreation grounds, even farmland, grasslands. And what would happen with Nest is every two weeks there would be a migration and there would be a set list of species of Pokemon that could appear. Basically the Pokemon would appear about 25% of the time in that particular nest, so 25% of all the spawn points there would be that particular nesting species. And that was something early on where communities shared that information, which meant that, you got a lot of community building out of those early stages of that feature

David Hernandez: 26:12

Yeah, nowadays. I mean, I always say this Nest don't really, I don't wanna say matter anymore, but because of how much they shift both beginning and end, they can shift both times. It's hard to keep up with them. The game's more event driven, like it makes Nest almost obsolete at this point, which is unfortunate.

WoodWoseWulf: 26:29

It is. It is very, very unfortunate, especially because people will put in the effort and they'll go, you know, oh, this particular nest is spawning this species of Pokemon, and two days later it's changed. it's actually probably one of the most disappointing things, I think with Pokemon Go these days. The fact that it was a great feature that actually did help build communities and encourage people to communicate with each other, and it's something that's been lost and I hope that as Niantic starts to push the game back to a more exercise and exploration focus, that we might see a bit of resurgence in that, but it's really gotta have the will from Niantic to do that. And they've really gotta see the value in it.

David Hernandez: 27:13

Do you have any ideas of what you would like to see change when it comes to nest?

WoodWoseWulf: 27:18

Uh, I have a lot of ideas, one of the big things for me would be seeing integration with Campfire. The Silph Nest Atlas was a really, really great resource early on, I had, I think 115 separate migrations recorded before I stopped doing it Because of events ruining the way that reports worked, and quite often I would report something and then I would get a message from somebody three days later saying, you're wrong. It's this, and it's because an events come in and it's changed the whole spawn system at that particular location, it makes the reporter look like they're not necessarily accurate, and that's something that's very, very important to me. If you spend, your Thursday night driving around to 12 nests and you try to impart that information to your community, and then three days later there's an event and the Nest spawn pool changes and everything shifts around. People are relying on that original information you posted but it's all wrong and that really breaks the faith in what nests are, it breaks the faith in the people who are reporting it, and it also breaks the of faith in any resources like The Silph Nest Atlas, if that makes sense. Like I said, I'd love to see some integration of Wayfarer where somebody could maybe report the Nest and they will stay relevant until there's a migration, so you could put a flag up and it will just stay there and then as soon as Niantic decides, I'm gonna have an event that changes Nest pools fine, it disappears and then people can go and report something else. Alternatively, you could do something similar to what Wizards Unite did, where you actually had a flag in game and it actually shows you Pidgey is nesting here, and it's just all in game. And that makes a lot more sense, it actually drives people to a particular location without even having to leave the app.

David Hernandez: 29:03

So speaking of Wayfarer, that's how you spend a lot of time with the game nowadays, right?

WoodWoseWulf: 29:07

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Between open street map and Wayfarer, I think actually probably spend more time on that side of things compared to actually playing Pokemon code these days.

David Hernandez: 29:18

Hey, no shame, somebody's gotta do it. And Wayfair is

WoodWoseWulf: 29:21

Yeah.

David Hernandez: 29:21

So for people who are listening, like how does Open Street Map and Wayfarer work together?

WoodWoseWulf: 29:26

Open street map basically provides the base map for Pokemon Go in terms of what you actually see on the game map, so roads, green areas, blue areas for water, buildings, nest, some biomes, it's a little bit more sketchy in that area. Wayfarer goes over the top of that and adds Pokestops and gyms into Pokemon Go. You have interactions such as ex eligible gyms, in which case a gym that sits within a level 20 S-2 cell in a Green Park area will pick up the ex eligible tag. It is a little more complicated than that, but at a basic level, you have that interaction between Open Street Map, whereas something's mapped as a park and then you have a gym out of Wayfarer in that park, it will be an EX-eligible gym.

David Hernandez: 30:16

Right, and this is important because a lot of new areas that get developed, if they aren't updated on open street map, then if you have a gym, say in a park and it's not labeled a park, it won't get that ex tag.

WoodWoseWulf: 30:27

Yeah, you won't have the ex gyms, you won't have nests. You might have less spawns. There's a lot of things that go into it that if you don't have an area well mapped an open street map at the time when Niantic pulls the data, which is very, very infrequent, then you'll have a worse time compared to a well mapped area. There's a campus in Singapore, which is actually the student residential campus at the University of Singapore called U Town. It was mapped as a school and there's thousands of students who play Pokemon Go in that area and they can't play in that particular place.

David Hernandez: 31:01

Yes, because there's no spawns that will spawn there, the only thing do is spin stops.

WoodWoseWulf: 31:06

You can spin stops and do raids, but there is absolutely zero Pokemon that will appear there.

David Hernandez: 31:11

Exactly, and I think for us here in Dallas or yeah, SMU, I think they finally got the ability to have spawns when some, they did the update, of course on open street map, but it didn't get implemented until, I think maybe 2018, 2019 is when they finally had spawns that happened at that college.

WoodWoseWulf: 31:27

It takes a very, very long time and the few cases where Niantic has actually stepped in to intervene, it's taken a lot of effort on behalf of the communities there in particular locations. I think the Seroni Gulf in Greece is a really good example where they had to campaign, get articles in Eurogamer across all the gaming press before Niantic would even do anything and you're talking about an island where there were no Pokemon that appeared at all. So you can't just go, oh, I'll just go to the next town over. You gotta get in a boat and go to Athens or something to even play the game properly.

David Hernandez: 32:01

Yeah it's a bit of a commute to go on a boat.

WoodWoseWulf: 32:03

a bit of a trip.

David Hernandez: 32:05

Yeah, just a little bit.

WoodWoseWulf: 32:05

Just a little bit outta the way. Don't worry.

David Hernandez: 32:08

So going to Wayfarer, what, what's it been your experience like with working with that system?

WoodWoseWulf: 32:12

It's both wonderful and extremely frustrating. In terms of wonderful, it's great being able to fill out areas and see places come to life. One of my favorite things to do is find somewhere that just has no way spots at all a complete blank Canvas and fill it out. Go out there, find everything that's really interesting, and add poker stops, add gyms, and make it somewhere really good to play. On the other hand, adding things sometimes can be very, very frustrating, and I understand that both from a reviewer perspective and from a submitter perspective, there are certain things that could be improved in the system. In terms of from a submitter perspective, sometimes it feels like you are almost treated like you're guilty until you're proven innocent in that you have to provide almost an overwhelming amount of evidence to prove that something exists, especially in a rural area that might not have street view, And on the other hand, sometimes when you're a reviewer, you're just not given enough information and I'm not sure whether Niantic has really pinned down the best way to handle that yet.

David Hernandez: 33:18

It's a very difficult line to follow, especially as a submitter, because whenever I see some of the criticisms from the Wayfarer community, I feel like you almost have to write an essay to try to get something approved sometimes, and it's a lot of hoops for me who is familiar with the system to do. I know how to do it because I've done Wayfarer for so long, but we're talking about, I'm the minority. The average person won't go into that much detail because they've got other things to take care of. They don't really have time to sit down like me or even you, to learn a system to try to get stuff approved.

WoodWoseWulf: 33:50

Exactly, and it's almost like learning some kind of weird magical school where you have the main textbook, but then you have to seek out the secret text on the forums and rid of the, be these three things before you submit the way spot, you know?

David Hernandez: 34:08

No, and that's what it feels like.

WoodWoseWulf: 34:10

Yeah. I, I just wish the whole process was a lot more simple so that people in areas that are disadvantage in a Wayfarer sense, were able to engage with the system more easily. And at the same time, people who were reviewing didn't have to feel like every single person who was submitting was trying to game the system. For Niantic, it's a challenge and coming from an open street map background where I've done a lot of moderation on the open street map side, the gamification of a system where people are trying to gain something for their own benefit really drives a lot of very odd and sometimes inappropriate and often inaccurate changes. Whether it's Wayfarer or Open Street Map, people, when the system is gamified, they're more encouraged to add fake things because it helps them.

David Hernandez: 35:03

What is it about Wayfarer and doing stuff with Open Street Map that appeals to you?

WoodWoseWulf: 35:07

I've always loved things like Sim City, I don't know if that's a weird thing to say, but just being able to fill out an environment with artifacts and things and customize a game map is just amazing and when you can do it in reality, I think it just adds a whole nother dimension to that.

David Hernandez: 35:27

I go back to the stuff that I submitted and see how much I've been able to build up an area. It gives you almost a sense of pride like before this area was empty and then you see it all with Pokestops or gyms or whatever have you, and then your photos on there and it has your in-game trainer name is like, that's something that can never really be taken away.

WoodWoseWulf: 35:42

Exactly! And I always like to imagine what experiences people will have with something you've added in the future. So, my brother got married in Western Australia the same time that I actually added the Wayspots in the southwestern point of Western Australia. We stayed at this resort, which was in the middle of the Karri Forest down near Pemberton, and I added multiple poker stops down there. I don't know who's ever gonna use them, I'm never gonna spin them, I'm never gonna put a Pokemon in that gym, but I just like to imagine somebody will come along someday and be like,"oh, that's really cool. I didn't expect anything to be here, but there it is." You create experiences for other people, which is just, something very profound and very, very interesting and very, very powerful to me. It is all about stories and people building their own personal narrative with the game map and getting out there and exploring and exercising and experiencing both the world because obviously with Wayfarer, you are adding real artifacts and real features and points of interest that people will discover potentially because of what you've done, but also enhancing their gameplay experience as well, which is, it's amazing.

David Hernandez: 36:51

Absolutely, man! Well, WoodWoseWulf, that's an interview. Do you have any last minute words for anybody listening?

WoodWoseWulf: 36:57

If anyone has any questions about Open Street Map, feel free to reach out to me on Twitter. My username is WoodWoseWulf with a U for the Wulf. Alternatively, feel free to join the Silph science or whatever we end up calling it Discord or the open street map, world discord as well, where there's a lot of really helpful people. If you are in an area like I was at the start of the game, that has very few spawns and very little POIs, just stick with it. Use friendship or whatever you can to level up, and as we were just saying, create your own story and create something that other people can build off as well. It's very, very powerful and it's a great thing that you can do to leave a legacy for yourself in Pokemon Go.

David Hernandez: 37:38

Absolutely, and you never know, you might find yourself as a guest on As The Pokeball Turns, if you do. Thank you for listening to another episode of As The Pokeball Turns. You can subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. If you wanna support the show, consider becoming a Patreon by going to patreon.com/asthePokeballturns, or by sharing the podcast with your friends and family, and I'll see you next time. Here's the sneak peek for the next episode of As The Pokeball Turns.